In Via
Planning a trip? Or just on the pilgrimage of daily living? We are the podcast at the intersection of faith and travel, assisting you on the journey to encounter Christ. Hear stories, discover travel tips, and learn more about our Catholic faith. Along the way, we’ll show you that if God seeks to meet us in Jerusalem, Rome, Lourdes, Mexico City, or Santiago, he also wants to encounter you - right there in your car, on your run, or in the middle of your workday.
In Via
Charity, Exile, and Resurrection: A Look at the Book of Tobit with Dr. Gary Anderson
What lessons lie in the ancient text of the Book of Tobit? Dr. Gary Anderson, Hesburgh Professor of Catholic Thought from the University of Notre Dame, joins us to unravel the profound themes of charity, sacrifice, and faith found within this captivating Biblical narrative.
Explore how Tobit's acts of corporal mercy, such as feeding the hungry and burying the dead, foreshadow teachings in the New Testament and align with early Christian views on social justice. Drawing parallels with the trials and redemption in the Book of Job, Dr. Anderson illuminates how themes of exile and hope permeate Tobit's story. Delve into Tobit's journey, his unwavering faith, and the ultimate redemption that highlights the significance of charity as a form of worship, resonating with early Christian thought.
Join us as we navigate the rich narrative and theological depth of Tobit's journey from the far north to Jerusalem, his son Tobias's perilous quest, and the moving song of thanksgiving in Chapter 13. Understand the Christological themes within Tobit's prayer of confession and the concept of corporate sin, reflecting on how these ancient teachings hold relevance for collective responsibility today. This episode promises to deepen your understanding of the lessons embedded in this oft-overlooked book of the Bible.
Welcome to In Via, the podcast where we're navigating the pilgrimage of life. We are all in via on the way and we are learning a lot as we go. I'm your host, joan Watson. Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn more about our Catholic faith. Along the way, we'll see that if God seeks to meet us in Jerusalem, rome or Santiago, he also wants to encounter you right there in your car, on your run or in the middle of your workday. I'm joined today by Dr Gary Anderson, the Hesburgh Professor of Catholic Thought at the University of Notre Dame. His specialization is the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, and in today's conversation we tackle the book of Tobit as a story of pilgrimage and life in Via. Well, good morning Gary, good morning to you.
Dr. Gary Anderson:Joan, how are you?
Joan:today.
Dr. Gary Anderson:It's a great morning, weather's good. I'm happy.
Joan:Yeah, it's always good when we have good weather in South Bend. You know like it may be few and far between, but when it's nice it's nice, right. The summers are great.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I regret that the students don't get to enjoy this. They spend most of their academic year and when South Bend's the worst.
Joan:Yeah, graduation weekend is always gorgeous, and then they go on their way, right?
Dr. Gary Anderson:That's exactly right.
Joan:So we're talking about South Bend because Dr Anderson teaches at the University of Notre Dame. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
Dr. Gary Anderson:So my area of academic specialization is the Bible, specifically the Old Testament. I studied, received my PhD at Harvard University and I've been very fortunate in teaching at very good institutions. I started out at the University of Virginia and then moved back to Harvard, where I was, but then, happily in 2003, I think it was I was, you know, given a job at Notre Dame and took that in a heartbeat and have been here for almost 20 years now or actually 20, a little over 20 years, and it's been fantastic. I love teaching here.
Joan:Yeah, I would imagine that the students at Notre Dame, while we do have a very diverse student body and not everyone's Catholic obviously is it different teaching the Old Testament at the University of Virginia versus Notre Dame? How is that compared in your mind?
Dr. Gary Anderson:It is, but maybe for reasons that might surprise some listeners, I think, and surprised me as well. When I arrived here I immediately began teaching our required theology course for first-year students, which I love doing. I've taught it the entire time I've been here. But I had taught nearly 20 years before I arrived at Notre Dame but never took a course that wasn't an elective for the student in question. So whenever I walked in the classroom I knew all the students in there had chosen to be there.
Dr. Gary Anderson:But it was a little bit of a surprise to walk into a classroom where almost no one chose to be there and some would have rather been in a different class if they could have chosen freely, would have rather been in a different class if they could have chosen freely. So initially I had to kind of adjust my teaching style to that audience. But over my time at Notre Dame I've come to really love that. It's a challenge and my goal always every semester is to have I of course can never achieve 100% unanimity, but to get as many students as possible on board with the notion that this is a course they should have chosen. Could they have had that opportunity. But I would say that was a big mental adjustment to walk into a room of suspicious students.
Joan:Yes, yeah, and that's exactly probably the opposite of what one would expect that answer to be, right, Like, oh, I teach at Notre Dame and so all the Catholics know the Old Testament. Yeah, right, Right, and so it's. It's a. That was almost the flip. Right that you're coming in here and you're almost having to prove your course in a sense.
Dr. Gary Anderson:Yeah, very much a flip and of course you have, you know, resistance from a number of different angles. I mean, some students were very good and observant Catholics but, you know, felt that they had taken theology from kindergarten through high school and they were ready to move on. I mean, I can understand that. But then other students, you know, were in their period of rebellion against parents, family and religion, and so from day one they were, you know, dead set against anything I would say.
Dr. Gary Anderson:So, yeah, there's a, but then you know there are always students, of course, who are eager for good theological preparation as well. I mean that goes without saying, but that's definitely not, you know, the only attitude you find when you enter into a classroom here.
Joan:Sure, that first attitude of like well, I took this in high school, or you know, I went to Catholic high school and so now I'm done. I worked at a diocese for many years and with adult formation we always came across that, right, like I don't. Well, I went to Catholic school, I know everything and I'm like no accountant would say that no doctor would say that Right, Like I took math in high school, I know everything. Right that this ongoing idea of learning in our faith for some reason gets lost, sometimes with Catholics, like I don't need to look at religion, I don't need because I took it once.
Dr. Gary Anderson:Right, I think that's true. I think you know I'm no expert on this, but my sense is that when you take theology in high school, it's definitely not at the intellectual level of your other courses.
Dr. Gary Anderson:And so students, I think you know, are generally pleasantly surprised to see, when they come to a theology course at Notre Dame, that the faculty you know have the same kind of credentials that all the other faculty at the university do and that the approach to the material is intellectually serious and rigorous. Yes, and you know it went over a lot of students on that, because if theology is just piety, I mean that's fine if you believe. But even people who believe, I think, want a deeper kind of root structure to what they believe, and I think that's the advantage of a well-taught academic theology course is that you can see there are very clear and reasons that one can articulate for why one would remain in the Catholic Church Well, that's putting it negatively, of course, but why one could thrive within the Catholic Church.
Joan:Yeah, yeah. If we don't raise our theology courses to the same level of our other academics, we send out this message that you know it's just for nice little old ladies to pray the rosary at Mass and we lose the Augustans and the Thomas Aquinas and the great. Like we have the great Western intellectual tradition, but how often we fail to kind of pass that on to our kids. So like your high school may have a great biology program but no, you know, theology program.
Dr. Gary Anderson:So there's no AP class in theology, and that's a shame. When you think about it, it is a shame. There definitely could be AP theology. You could read the Summa that would give students a real run for their money yeah.
Joan:Yeah, I love it and this does actually, I think, connect to this whole theme of this podcast in VIA, that we are all on this journey. We are all on this pilgrimage of life and the intellectual I think, um, the intellectual search is part of that. That. You know, you are a different person in college than you were in high school and you'll be a different person later the same person, of course, but that growth in our spiritual life, in our intellectual life, that life is a journey and it's not stagnant, and the spiritual life, the intellectual life, is part of that journey. Um, I was excited, um, I asked Dr Anderson, you know, would he like to talk about, you know, pilgrimage in the Old Testament or what connected to the Old Testament would he like to talk about?
Joan:And he specifically talked about the idea of invia, about being on the way on this journey, and connected it to the book of Tobit. So that's going to be our topic today is the book of Tobit. I was thrilled because I love Tobit. I think it's a very accessible book because it's so short and it's a great story. So I've heard through the grapevine that you really love the book of Tobit. I told someone we're going to talk about Tobit and they said that doesn't surprise me at all, he loves Tobit. What drew you really to love the book of Tobit in all your Old Testament studies?
Dr. Gary Anderson:That's a great question. I don't know if I can answer that because it certainly was an affection that came upon me late, but I had, I'd say, multiple points of origin. But I tried to guess and this point would be a guess. It was when I wrote my book on the subject of charity. I turned to Tobit because Tobit, of course, distinguishes himself through what Catholics would call the works of charity. I turn to Tobit because Tobit, of course, distinguishes himself through what Catholics would call the works of corporal mercy burying the dead, feeding the hungry, you know, giving water to the thirsty, basically the virtues you see in Matthew 25, you know the criteria that will be used at the final judgment for all of us, which is basically concern for the poor, and I think many Christians think that that, you know, is the kind of distinctive or unique teaching of Jesus, which at one level it is, but at another level, everything you know Jesus has to say there in Matthew 25 and actually about charity throughout the New Testament, has already been anticipated in the old and in particular in the book of Tobit. So I'd say that's really what you know drew me to the book.
Dr. Gary Anderson:Also, it has a kind of very much you might want to say a Joban atmosphere. It's like the book of Job. In other words, tobit is a man of extraordinary piety, but he's punished for his piety. Punished might not be the right word, but he's tried, let's say, for his piety. Struck blind, loses all of his money, looks like he's going to die without grandchildren. Everything looks very grim. But then in the end of course it all turns around as it does for Job. But it's important to realize that the heart of the book or the center of the book, it certainly doesn't look like it will all turn around for Tobit and he's resigned himself to a tragic early death and sets in motion what he believes is the last trip of his son and will end his life as well. But happily for Tobit it doesn't turn out that way.
Joan:Yes, and I think some of our listeners may be not familiar with the book. It's kind of a unique book where it's not in the historical. You know you don't find it as part of like the Exodus Genesis story. Right, he's not a prophet, you know? Like you said, it kind of fits with Job, I think, and Judith. But many of our listeners might not be familiar with the story because it isn't found in Protestant Bibles. Can you give us like a little crash course on the story for people who might not know the story? You've already begun.
Dr. Gary Anderson:So, Tobit, I mean formally, it's very similar, I would say, to the book of Daniel in the sense that both of those books their literary setting is roughly the third century, you know, bc, about a couple of hundred years before the birth of Christ.
Dr. Gary Anderson:But their literary setting is far earlier, in the 8th century BCE, the period in which the northern kingdom of Israel is overrun by the Assyrians and all of the northerners then are sent into exile. Daniel picks up basically the same theme, but a couple of hundred years later, when the Babylonians invade and then take all of the Israelites who live in the south we know as Judeans and exiles them to Babylon. So both books are exploring the notion of exile and hope for return. That really links to your Envia theme because they both situate themselves within the history of the people of Israel, in which they're exiled from their land but yearning for return and restoration, and that's very much the background of Tobit. So Tobit takes that theme of exile and hoped for return from the vantage point of the Assyrian exile in the 8th century and Daniel takes that theme of exile and hoped for return in the period of the Babylonian conquest.
Joan:Yeah, I love this idea of that because Toba is a book of charity, right, we see those acts of charity and Raphael says, like go and give alms, right, this idea of charity even in an exile, right, I mean, I think we can get like down about like oh well, the culture's not Catholic, and so I'm just going to go like woe is me, like no, look like Tobit did what he was supposed to do, even surrounded by suffering, right, even when he continues to suffer. This idea that charity never stops, like we're called to love everyone, we're called to do charity even in exile, and so I place that in that context, that's exactly right.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I think one of the key themes in the book of Tobit is the way in which the charitable impulse replaces replaces perhaps not the exact, exactly correct word parallels, we might want to say the obligation to bring sacrifices to the temple. So charity develops this strong. You know what I call sacramental sense. It is definitely about, you know, making a better world, correcting injustices for the poor, etc. That's all there. But it's more than that. It's really about the worship of God, and that also overlaps with what happens within early Christianity as well.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I mean, one of my favorite quotes of St John Chrysostom is after, you know, celebrating the mass, he tells his congregants to go out into the streets of Antioch and meet the many living altars there. That means all the poor people in the street. They're all ways of encountering Christ. So that's an important thing to realize that charity is, more than you know, a social justice movement, and I have nothing against social justice. It is that. But it's a social justice movement grounded in a kind of a very unique form of Christology.
Dr. Gary Anderson:But that's also anticipated in Tobit not the Christological element, but the notion that one's obligation to the poor is inseparable from one's obligation to God, and you can see that in the very first book of first chapter, I'm sorry of Tobit, in which his virtues are initially displayed in the extraordinary fidelity he has to the temple in Jerusalem. But then, of course, that temple is going to be destroyed, and so the author immediately picks up with Tobit, now in exile, acting charitably towards those around him, and that parallelism is, you know, a very pointed and intentional aspect of the book. He can no longer worship at the temple, of course in Assyria, but he can do the next best thing, which is to serve God through his acts of mercy to the poor.
Joan:Wow, and it makes me think about how the temple obviously was central to the Jews. It gave them their identity in a lot of ways. Right, their identity came from the Sabbath and from temple worship. And when that's taken away and we see this especially after the temple destruction in 70 AD they have to figure out what is a Jew without a temple? Right? But then it reminds me that we are known as Christians by our love. That, like, what should give us our identity? Sure, the Eucharist and the sacrifice of the mass, but, but, but. It's very clearly in the New Testament. They will know you're my disciples because you love one another, and so that charity being that defining factor for us of love of neighbor, not just for the sake of loving neighbor, but through then loving the Lord sake of loving neighbor but through then loving the Lord.
Dr. Gary Anderson:Yeah, there, I think the document I love to use in teaching that brings out, you know, the insight you wonderfully brought up, is Deus Caritas Est of Benedict XVI God is Love where he makes it quite clear that, you know, a Eucharist that doesn't, you know, open up into service of the poor is a I can't remember his word not improper, but certainly a fractured or partial celebration of the sacrament. And he has a great quote, you know, in that same section I believe it's paragraphs 13 to 18, somewhere in that range where he says that Mother Teresa's experience of the Eucharist was enriched by her service to the poor, and her service to the poor correlatively enriched her celebration of the Eucharist. In other words, these kind of vectors go both ways, and that's an important thing to bear in mind, because what is the Eucharist? It's Christ offering his life to us. And what is charity? Charity is offering, you know, what we value, our material possessions, but giving them to others. So I mean, in the Christian understanding, the charitable act is deeply, you know, cruciform in that sense.
Joan:Yeah, we just came off of the Eucharistic Congress in DC and one of the talks talked about the two lungs of, like breathing in of the worship of the Lord and then breathing out service to the poor.
Joan:And if you only have one, if you don't, if you only breathe in, you're going to die. If you only breathe out, you're going to die. And so that this, this parallel I thought that was a beautiful image of this, this parallel, like of loving the Lord through the neighbor. And it's not just either or, but, it has to be both.
Dr. Gary Anderson:and yeah, I think that's at the heart of what Deus Caritas est wishes to say, and I think that's exactly right yeah.
Joan:Well, looking back at Tobit, we actually have a journey of an actual kind of pilgrimage that Tobit's son takes with Archangel Raphael. It's where we find the Archangel Raphael in scripture in the book of Tobit, so you could talk. Could you talk a little bit about that next part of the story?
Dr. Gary Anderson:So there's actually, if we're thinking about pilgrimage in Tobit, there's, I think, two journeys we would want to frame. So that's one. I'll get to that in a second. But the chap book opens up, as I mentioned, with Tobit's, the you know reciting of Tobit's fulfillment of the obligation to go and pilgrimage three times a year to Jerusalem, and that's the primary pilgrimage.
Dr. Gary Anderson:You know, theme within the Old Testament is the term in Hebrew, is Allah or Aliyah, is the noun, verbal noun, to go up, to go up to the city of Jerusalem to worship God at his holy mountain. And there are three occasions during the year in which the religious Israelite, or now the religious Jew, would be obligated to do such Passover, pentecost and the Feast of Booths, in the fall. In the fall. And we read in chapter one that Tobit, you know, is exemplary among his peers as the only one in northern Israel who continues to do this after the northern kingdom separates from the south and establishes alternative worship sites. But Tobit is portrayed as a man of, you know, super erogatory piety because of his continuation to follow the injunctions of the book of Deuteronomy. But more than that, it's also quite significant that Tobit hails from the tribe of Naphtali, because if you look at a map, if you go to the back of your Bibles, where you have maps, you'll notice that Naphtali is in the far north, which means his journey is of a considerable distance.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I mean if he was located, for example, in the tribe of Benjamin, which is right next door to Jerusalem, he'd basically fall out of bed. And he's there. But that's not how the book sets up the story. Tobit is from the far north, so this journey, this pilgrimage that he makes, that exemplifies his virtuosity, is something that comes at great cost to his person. Now the book is framed by that story of his going up to Jerusalem. But the book ends in part in chapter 13, with the famous song of thanksgiving of Tobit, in which he not only thanks God for restoring him from death to life, from being blind to having sight, from only one child to now a married child with many grandchildren.
Dr. Gary Anderson:All of these are exemplary in the Old Testament of going from death to life. We can see that in the New Testament too. The story of the prodigal son talks about the son going from I was dead, but now I'm alive, or you were dead. I can't remember if the father might say that, but that's very much the movement in Tobit. But Tobit uses that occasion not simply to celebrate what God did for him but to use, as it were, that action of God on his behalf as leverage for the people Israel. So his concerns aren't just about himself or his immediate family, but his entire people, and he expresses that with the hope that Jerusalem will be rebuilt and that Jerusalem will reflect the promises made to this city in the second half of the prophet Isaiah. So if you look at Tobit 13, you'll see that he's channeling some of the more extraordinary promises made to Jerusalem in the prophet Isaiah.
Dr. Gary Anderson:But all of that's very important because we have to remember that Tobit, as I mentioned, is written in the second century, when actually the temple is rebuilt. But what's very important for Judaism in this period is, though they celebrate that temple that's within Jerusalem, they realize, because of the nature of biblical promises, that God has promised an even bigger and better temple. So even though they're making pilgrimage to Jerusalem in the time in which the book of Tobit is written, they're still expecting more. So they are still in via, right, they haven't arrived. That's a very important feature of the book. It's a kind of already in part. Yes, the second temple has been built, but not yet the full expectation of what God intends to bring about is still awaited.
Dr. Gary Anderson:So this theme of Jerusalem and the notion of being in via and the rebuilding of Jerusalem all of which, of course, is in the background in the book of Revelation, and Christian eschatology as well, is a deep part of the book. So that's the frame, so that's a very important element of travel, and we might want to say pilgrimage within the book of Tobit. But then really the heart of the book is what you mentioned in terms of the plot line of Tobit's own life, which is sending his son, tobias, on what appears to be, at least in the frame of the book, a dangerous journey to recover funds that Tobit has left on deposit. The book never says why Tobias has to go and do this. In fact, tobit's wife is quite angry at sending the son on this perilous journey.
Joan:She's kind of an angry woman in this book, isn't she I?
Dr. Gary Anderson:think she's justified, though I mean, I think most of us would sympathize with that. They only have one son left. Why risk everything on a trip that seems so dangerous? Of course he's being accompanied, as you mentioned, by the archangel Raphael, but they don't know that he's just a guy an ordinary citizen.
Dr. Gary Anderson:So why entrust your only remaining son to a stranger? But that's of course a risk that Tobit assumes. That pays off spectacularly in ways they could never have foreseen. They're imagining, or Tobit's imagining he's going to retrieve the money he left on deposit. But he finds a far more important goal or aim as he embarks on this journey when he meets his future wife, who also is suffering for her piety as well your wife, who also is suffering for her piety as well. All of her husbands are put to death when they enter the wedding canopy, so she seems to be damaged goods. I think that's an important part of the story as well, because when Tobias decides to go through with that marriage and consummate the marriage, of course on his wedding night, he has to know full well that this night hasn't ended well for all the previous suitors. So it's a risk on his behalf. And in fact one of the kind of comic moments in the book is his father-in-law is out digging a grave. That's my favorite part, I think.
Dr. Gary Anderson:Yeah it's an incredible moment.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I mean, he's just convinced this is the end, but it doesn't prove to be the end they survive their wedding night and then, very importantly for the book, he not only survives, they marry and they eventually have many children. So that can allow the book to end in what I like to call the kind of Old Testament perspective on resurrection or beatific vision how to charmed or beatified characters end their life. In the Bible they usually end their life with their children, grandchildren and sometimes even great grandchildren gathered around them. That was true for Jacob Abraham in the book of Genesis. It's true for Job very important element of the book of Job that when he dies all of his family is around him, and the same thing then of course happens for Tobit. That really is the sign that he lived a graced life, but that didn't seem to be in the cards in chapter four, and it was that risky journey that his son embarks on that made all of that possible.
Joan:There's a passage that I love, a chapter um, where Tobit's praying and we have this temptation to even end his life, like he asks the Lord, like, take me right, like, why am I?
Joan:And then we have this parallel image with um, with, with Sarah, sarah, yes, yeah, sarah, praying the same thing because she's been insulted by her maid.
Joan:You know, um, she's not been successful, all her husbands have died, and on the wedding night, very dramatically, and um, and that, that, like, the Lord hears their prayer at the same time, right, and this idea that, um, they're, in a sense, the world would look at them as damaged goods, like you said, right, like he's a blind old man that you know what has he what? What reward has his piety gotten him? But suffering, right, and she apparently is faithful, but she's been cursed by this demon, right, that has killed her husband. And so this willingness just to cry out to the Lord, to put ourselves in his hands, and the Lord rewards that prayer greatly, like more than they could probably ever imagine. And it just gives me so much hope that we are all in the middle of our stories. Right, we're in the middle of the story, we're not at the end of the story and to never give up that prayer and to never give up on others that never judge those damaged goods, because the Lord is still working in their lives.
Dr. Gary Anderson:No, that's very true, and I think I mean I mentioned the Jobin element. I think it's a key theme in the book of Tobit and we, you know, one of the ways in which we can measure Tobit's virtue is by the fact that he retains his faithfulness to God and to the moral life, the moral life structured by charity, even though not only is it not rewarded but, you know, it seems to be from all external circumstance punished. So it makes, you know, his virtuosity, you know, all the more stellar and really supernatural. You know, augustine, one of my favorite lines from Augustine on the book of Tobit is that you know he said that Tobit had to see the world through a supernatural light.
Dr. Gary Anderson:You, know, even though he was blind, he clearly saw, or retained, a notion of God's goodness through it all, which is you know. Yes, I think it's one of the more spectacular features of the book.
Joan:Yeah, that faithfulness. And it is a book of great adventure, right? I mean, it seems to be dangerous. They get attacked by a large fish. I mean, there's this like crazy scene where this fish I mean, there's this like crazy scene where this fish I think the translation varies and what exactly came out of the water, but then they kill it and that ends up being a source of healing for Tobit's blindness, which is it's just.
Dr. Gary Anderson:There's all these fantastic elements in the story, yeah, that like kind of life threatening moment. And you're right, One of the things that's actually a challenge for Tobit is that the text is very unstable. So there's a couple of Greek translations, for example, that scholars refer to when they're trying to reconstruct the text of Tobit, and then you have several Latin versions and versions in other languages as well. At Qumran we have probably remnants you know remnants of the Aramaic original, but they're only remnants. They're kind of scattered. You know pieces. So the story sometimes is difficult to reconstruct.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I think of it as analogous to da Vinci's painting the Last Supper, which was marred by.
Dr. Gary Anderson:They eventually built a door that wiped out Christ's feet, for example. So scholars that work on that painting have to rely to a degree on early drawings of you know other artists who love the painting, because those are our records of how it might have really looked. And in a sense with Tobit it's the same thing. We have all of these different versions looked and in a sense with Tobit it's the same thing. We have all of these different versions. We have to take guesses as to what the original might have looked like. I mean I shouldn't overstate the matter. I mean 90% of the plot line is quite clear but there are many moments like the encounter with the fish of course that are somewhat more ambiguous. But the encounter with the fish is extraordinary because it actually provides the means of solving the two problems of the book Sarah's, you know, ability to marry and mother children, but also the healing of Tobit's blindness. And the fish is the kind of key ingredient for both of those problems.
Joan:Can we see a spiritual meaning behind that of this? Like I mean, is it just this random thing that this fish attacks them and then the liver is used to, you know, or can we? Can we look into it as a spiritual, like once he was willing to face death. Then I don't know. I I'm making this up as I go along right now, but I just think it's. Is it just this random occurrence, or is there something deeper there, where there's this encounter with death that he, raphael, helps him overcome and then out of that comes healing, out of that comes resurrection for both involved?
Dr. Gary Anderson:That's an interesting suggestion. I have to say I haven't thought about it. I have to say I haven't thought about it, but I think the book is very much up being not only not the end of him but actually the restoration of the entire family, so that this, you know, flirtation, we might want to say with death, becomes the occasion of a life-giving moment. And in that sense the book, I think, is also deeply Christological or we might want to say, cruciform in character, where the cross becomes not the end of a tragic life but actually the occasion of the celebration of a divine reward for a life well-lived.
Joan:And that's very much part of Tobit as well I was going to ask do any of the church fathers or any biblical commentators see this as a Christological, that the father sends the son out on mission? Right, the father sends his only son out, and then the son's. You know this great adventure of the son almost like the incarnation then leads to that restoration. That's a good question, I mean.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I've written on that subject, but I'm not a church father so that doesn't count so honestly, I've not checked that out.
Dr. Gary Anderson:Perhaps I should have. I mean, we don't have a lot of commentary on the book. Among the church fathers we have Ambrose, I think, has a short commentary which I've looked at but haven't carefully studied, and then Cyprian also comments on the book, but I don't remember that he highlights that. I think Cyprian's interest is more on Tobit as a man of charity and you know the parallels of Tobit to the New Testament virtues were obvious to all of these writers and that's typically where they went the focus.
Joan:Yeah Well, this has been beautiful and I think it's given us a lot of fruit for our own prayer as we're looking at our own lives in Via, as we're looking at our own pilgrimage of life. Looking at our own pilgrimage of life, you know all these themes of a life of charity, a life in exile. You know resurrection out of death, this idea of hope. I think it really more than I was even expecting before we started this conversation. I think it speaks to us as Christians in via. On the way, I have one question that I don't know whether it has an answer to, but do you have any insight as to the dog?
Dr. Gary Anderson:No, everyone asks about the dog.
Joan:It's quite surprising.
Dr. Gary Anderson:It's an interesting little detail, it is it appears twice when people draw. We have, of course, artistic renderings Rembrandt and the, etc. They'll often show the little doggy as I say running along with Tobias. But it is quite surprising because dogs don't have that kind of cachet generally in the Bible. If anything they're you know, animals of you know less. I don't want to say disreputable, but certainly not charming in the way we imagine them. But it is a very charming animal in the book of Tobit and I have no wisdom on that.
Joan:I apologize. No, I think it's something we'll just wait in heaven and ask. You know, ask Tobit himself, like because, um, for those of you who haven't read Tobit, there it's very clearly mentioned like and the dog went with them and the, you know, wasn't part doesn't seem to be part of Jewish culture.
Joan:And so who is this little dog? And, um, I mean I think now we can look at Fido as a some. You know the dog is a symbol of fidelity, but that wouldn't have been. That would be reading something now back into that.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I think we want to resist that, but on the other hand, I have no good answer. So um, I guess any any answer we suggest as a possibility.
Joan:I love it. Um there anything else you would like to note about this beautiful book, this rich book? As we wrap up, Any final thoughts or any last points?
Dr. Gary Anderson:So I mean, I think one of the more profound themes of the book and you alluded to it already is Tobit's prayer in chapter three. I've always viewed this also as deeply Christological, because what's surprising about it is it's a prayer of confession of sin. But we know from the beginning of the book of Tobit that Tobit is, at least with respect to what brought on the exile of the northern kingdom, completely innocent of those sins. And the first chapter of the book is set out really to demonstrate his innocence, but more than innocence I would call his supererogatory faith. That is, a faith that goes beyond any kind of normal measurement in the way in which, descending from the tribe of Naphtali, he engages faithfully in the three pilgrimage festivals and the reason for exiling the Northern Kingdom is because they specifically didn't do that. So chapter three is a big shocker when we see Tobit, you know, confess that sin. But for me this is very similar to Jesus agreeing to participate in John's baptism. My colleague now passed away, sadly.
Dr. Gary Anderson:John Meyer, in his, you know, famous set of books on the historical Jesus, you know, commented at great length on you know Jesus' agreement to undergo John's baptism, which was utilized by some scholars in a kind of anti-Christian sense. Well, this is a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, jesus willingly participates, ergo is a baptism for the forgiveness of sins, jesus willingly participates, ergo he must have understood himself as a sinner, to which John Myers said well, I mean, in a sense, that's a kind of you know logical syllogism. That can't be, you know broken. But what's wrong with it is the presumption that confession of sin in this period was the confession of individual and individual sins, whereas we know that confession of sin as imagined by the John the Baptist is a confession of corporate sin, of you know Israel's disobedience that led to her exile.
Dr. Gary Anderson:And so when Jesus participates within that confession of sin, what he's essentially doing my colleague John Meyer argued is demonstrating his fidelity and solidarity with his people. Right, that he doesn't see himself as somehow holier than thou and point his finger and say, well, you're suffering because you did this, but I didn't do that, so I don't suffer. No, but that's not Jesus's person. Jesus engages in radical solidarity with his people of Israel and so can engage in this confession of sin, not because he himself is a sinner, but because he loves his people. And I think that's exactly how we should read that prayer of Tobit in chapter three, not that he's the second person of the Trinity and innocent in the way Jesus is.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I don't want to overstate the matter, but his confession of sin, which initially appears somewhat, you know, unusual, given his innocence, I think, is calculated to make the point that Tobit is a person who is never just kind of pointing his finger at his people and touting his own piety over against their impiety, but rather implicates himself in the history, the tragic history, of his people, and refuses to be separated from them. And that will set up then his prayer of thanksgiving, as I mentioned in chapter 13, where he'll have the same attitude towards his salvation. It's not for him, but the salvation is meant to be a spur to the people's salvation, which is exactly what happens at Christ's resurrection. It's not about just him being raised, but it's all of us being raised with him. So I think I love that part of the book of Tobit and I think it, you know, comes at that Christological theme and a distinctively we might want to say Old Testament from a distinctively Old Testament vantage point.
Joan:We've lost, I think and maybe it's just the circles I run in, but I think we've lost a lot of that idea of corporate like, of making atonement even for sins that might not be ours, but just recognizing that we are all to blame. I feel like and maybe it's the individual, um, that triumph of the individual that we find in America, that, but it's. It seems like a lot of times it's us pointing fingers at those people over there or they've done something wrong, rather than taking on that that all of us are to blame, right? And how do we then make atonement for that? How do we sacrifice for that? How do we do works of charity for that? I feel like we've lost that corporate sense of we are all to blame for the situation we're in. It's not that person over there, would you agree?
Dr. Gary Anderson:No, I think that's exactly right.
Dr. Gary Anderson:I guess if I was to quote you know Benedict again in his encyclical Space Solve, he's Saved by Hope he addresses specifically that notion of thinking of salvation in an overly individualistic frame of mind, that when we conceive of salvation within the Christian church, our thoughts should definitely, you know, of salvation within the Christian church. Our thoughts should definitely, you know, tend towards the corporate element, and it's certainly one of the reasons that informs the piety of purgatory, of praying for family members, et cetera, and asking family members to pray for us, because our salvation is never simply that of an autonomous individual, but an individual linked to all those you know around us, but an individual linked to all those around us. And yeah, de Lubac, I know Ratzinger, pope Benedict also cites on this score there are, I think, rich Catholic resources for recovering this notion of sin is corporate and salvation is corporate. I mean, it's not to dismiss the individual part, for certain, but I think the individual part has been so overly, you know, emphasized that recovery of the corporate element is, you know, important.
Joan:You know hope for the church, yeah, yeah, we are the body of Christ and we are many members, but we are one Right. I think of. You know John Paul II in the year 2000 asking forgiveness for the sins of the church and he went back and he asked for the forgiveness you know, forgiveness of sins. He personally hadn't committed right, but as Peter he's asking for this kind of corporate forgiveness from the Lord and from those we had hurt, and so to recover that. And it reminds me of pilgrimage that we are not on pilgrimage alone. Even those people who may like strike out on the Camino all by themselves, they quickly find companions, and that's the pilgrimage of life too. We don't have to do this alone. That's the beauty of the church, that we are on this in via.
Dr. Gary Anderson:It's not an individual solo in via, but that we are in this together, and a lot of people who go on pilgrimage also will contact their friends in advance and ask them for prayer. Prayer requests absolutely so that on via they can you know again kind of like tobit, leverage their own piety here to the benefit of those beyond themselves.
Joan:Yeah, absolutely, and I know at versa we always pray for our pilgrims by name, actually before they go. Knowing, knowing and after knowing that that's the best way we can accompany someone is spiritually so great. Well, thank you very much, gary. I appreciate the time, I appreciate the conversation about Tobit and listeners. Thanks for listening, and I encourage you to share this episode, maybe with someone who is in via, as we all are, but also someone who might be interested in the Old Testament, interested in the book of Tobit, maybe has never read the book of Tobit. But share this episode, follow us and tune in next time. God bless, thank you.
