In Via
Planning a trip? Or just on the pilgrimage of daily living? We are the podcast at the intersection of faith and travel, assisting you on the journey to encounter Christ. Hear stories, discover travel tips, and learn more about our Catholic faith. Along the way, we’ll show you that if God seeks to meet us in Jerusalem, Rome, Lourdes, Mexico City, or Santiago, he also wants to encounter you - right there in your car, on your run, or in the middle of your workday.
In Via
All Roads Lead to the Eternal City: The History of Roman Pilgrimages with Dr. Timothy O'Donnell
In the latest episode, Dr. Timothy O'Donnell, beloved professor and current president of Christendom College, joins In Via for a captivating discussion. Together, we delve into the profound allure and historical richness of Rome as a pilgrimage destination. Through a blend of personal anecdotes and Dr. O'Donnell's scholarly expertise, we explore the deep connections between family, education, and faith, while contemplating the universal journey that binds us all.
From the sacredness of St. Peter's Basilica to the depths of the catacombs, Rome stands as a testament to the enduring legacy of the Catholic faith. Dr. O'Donnell and I trace the beginnings of the Church in Rome back to the martyrdom of Saint Peter. Our conversation bridges the gap between past and the present of the iconic city, acknowledging Rome's pivotal role in shaping the spiritual narratives that have resonated through generations.
Want to know more about Roman Pilgrimage?
This is Rome with Fulton Sheen by H. V. Morton
Roman Pilgrimage: The Station Churches by George Weigel
The Bones of St. Peter: The Full Account of the Search for the Apostle's Body by
The Companion Guide to Rome by Georgina Masson
A History of Rome by Moses Hadas
Welcome to In Via the podcast where we're navigating the pilgrimage of life. We are all in via on the way and we are learning a lot as we go. I'm your host, Joan Watson. Join me as we listen to stories, discover travel tips and learn more about our Catholic faith. Along the way, we'll see that if God seeks to meet us in Jerusalem, Rome or Santiago, he also wants to encounter you right there in your car, on your run or in the middle of your workday. Welcome back, listeners. Welcome back to In Via the podcast, where we are navigating the daily pilgrimage of life, and we are in the midst of a mini series where we are looking at Christian pilgrimage to various historical pilgrimage sites. We have looked at the history of pilgrimage with our Jewish brothers and sisters. We've also looked at the Christian pilgrimages to the Holy Land, and today we are going to talk about one of my favorite cities on this planet Earth, Rome, and I am joined today with Dr Timothy O'Donnell, the president of Christendom College. Hi, Dr O'Donnell.
Dr. O'Donnell:Oh Joannie, how are you? I am great it's great to be with you.
Joan:It's great to have you here. Full disclosure to my listeners. I am an alum of Christendom College and was blessed to have Dr O'Donnell as a leader, not just as president, but also as a professor. So I'm very excited to talk to you today about a city I know you love Rome.
Dr. O'Donnell:You got souls out of purgatory by having me as your teacher.
Joan:I don't think that at all. They're streaming out all the time, that's great. Do you mind telling our listeners? I usually ask my guests if they could only tell people three sentences about themselves, what would you say? So I'm going to ask you that and then see if you can give us three.
Dr. O'Donnell:In three sentences. Okay, that's why I'm already talking too much, no, no, well, basically the thing that I'm in terms of who I am I'm a dad. I'm married, I'm a father. God blessed us with nine children. I married a wonderful woman, Kathy, who's been such a wonderful support over so many years. God blessed us with six boys and three girls, and so father, which is a big thing, also, I think, a teacher. I absolutely love teaching. Though I've been president, I still think of myself even in my presidential role in terms of teaching, you know, exhorting, trying to help people through liberal arts and through education to grow closer to our Lord through that. And so those would be the two sentences. And then, as far as yeah, I guess the other thing I would say yeah, I've been president for 32 years, so, being president of Christendom College, I would have to say that would probably be the big thing. So, married father, teacher and president, those would probably be the three things.
Joan:I love it. How many grandkids are you at now?
Dr. O'Donnell:We have 19 right now.
Joan:That's so wonderful.
Dr. O'Donnell:And one of our daughters is actually a cloistered poor Clare and the best in-laws in the world.
Joan:Yes, yes you know the other in-laws can't compete with you.
Dr. O'Donnell:That's absolutely true. But they can take advantage of those in-laws, as we are too. But it's been wonderful. So it took me a while to get used to grandpa. But after the last child we're empty nesters now. Kind of they keep coming back. But you know, once we became empty nesters then I just really totally embraced the whole grandpa thing taking for tractor rides and things like that and it's, the grandchildren are such a beautiful thing, so innocent, so good, and it's just they're just an absolute delight. So there's 19 right now.
Dr. O'Donnell:That's exciting, that's wonderful Number 20 is on the way.
Joan:Oh, that's great, so there are twenty, that's great, oh, that's exciting.
Dr. O'Donnell:I'm sorry, that's true. That's true.
Joan:So we are here to talk about pilgrimage and the whole podcast is about pilgrimage, but today we're specifically thinking about Rome. But I like to kind of, I guess, because my work is in pilgrimage now it really makes me wonder why pilgrimage is a major part in so many religions. Why is the heart drawn towards pilgrimage and I'd love to hear your opinion of that, because we see it not just in Christianity why are we drawn to pilgrimage?
Dr. O'Donnell:Well, I think, in a certain sense, anyone who's born on planet Earth recognized that life itself is a journey. I mean, there's different stages that you're going through and I think pilgrimage even the notion of pilgrimage, it always implies some form of faith, some form of religiosity, and I think the fact that everyone, just on the natural level, recognizes that we are all on a journey towards some goal and different religions have given different answers. With Christianity we have the one true answer, the beautiful answer that we're destined to the beatific vision of the Triune God and be able to see that, with all the accidental joys of loved ones and friends, Everyone else is going to be up there and seeing the Blessed Mother, all of those things will be great. So that's such a beautiful goal. I remember when little Francesco, one of the visionaries at Fatima, just before his death, had a vision of Blessed Mother and said, just said, I want to go to heaven. I want to go to heaven and that's just with seeing Mary.
Dr. O'Donnell:So you can imagine when we get to the Viet Nam Ig, when we see the Triune, god, infinite beauty, goodness and things. So I think that type of thing is sort of instinctive. Man is naturally religious we are homo-religionis, you know and so I think the fact that in pilgrimage we're sort of answering that instinctive call and that spiritual call since all life is a journey, we want to participate and facilitate that by doing that journey where we can achieve some type of tangible goal that is actually preparing us for the ultimate goal. So I think it's a reflection of life. It's a little archetype of what, the bigger picture of what everyone is actually going through.
Joan:That makes sense. Yeah there's this hole. Yeah, I mean there's a hole in our hearts, right, and we're looking and some people never find the answer to that hole. And we know the answer to that hole, but there's still this desire. For I love how you mentioned the tangible nature, that you know we are made body and soul and so there is this kind of need for that tangible grasping to fill that hole.
Dr. O'Donnell:And to fulfill that? Yeah, because we're obviously always moving. I mean time continues to move. We're always moving through life and doing all sorts of things. So to have a sort of a concentrated pilgrimage is a way. There's no doubt that it is a preparation for eventually anticipating that final completion. You know, certainly Christian pilgrimage is very, very much that way.
Joan:Yes, and when we look at Christian pilgrimage, I think one city really stands out. We've talked about Holy Land in a previous episode, but I know it's a big question. But I think the question that sits out here about is why Rome? I remember I went to my first pilgrimage that I planned for a diocese was to go to Rome and I remember somebody saying to me well, why Rome? And I was like, oh, that's a huge question to answer, but I think the same thing you know, you decided to start the Christendom Rome program. So you know, here you are the president of a fantastic liberal arts college in Virginia, but you knew, okay, study abroad needs to be part of that liberal arts education. And you chose Rome. And I think somebody could ask you why? Why Rome of all places? Why?
Dr. O'Donnell:Rome? Sure, that's a great question. Pane, pasta, pomodoro the best pasta in the world, the best fresh tomatoes it's a great bread, okay, no, but obviously. Obviously, for me, I think it's because when I first went to Rome, I was deeply moved by what I found there, and before I went into theology, I was a history major, so I had a deep love of history and the thing, the old expression, all roads lead to Rome.
Dr. O'Donnell:There is a universality about Rome that I think you just can't find in other, in other countries, in the exclusive way in which you can find it at Rome. Every people on the face of the earth have left their footprint on Rome, even in terms of the different national churches. There's the church of the French, the church of the Germans, the church of the Japanese, the Chinese have a church, the Filipinos have a church, different churches from Africa, Belgium, everybody's part of that, and so there is this incredible universality that you find there and it keeps drawing people there. Also, virtually every level of history, from the megalithic period all the way down to the time of the Roman Republic and, of course, the Roman Empire as well. But Rome, since she inherited in a very real sense the glory of Jerusalem, because they got the Christian faith but also the glory of the Greek achievement. So many of those things have such a deep universal appeal across all cultures Because the Greeks, with their knowledge of philosophy, believed that the mind can know objective reality. The Romans took that and built upon it in their sense of the common good, a communal ethic, the concern for justice and building a just social aura. Although they failed frequently but they had us like people like Cicero there was a strong sense of those type of things. Rome represents a universal value. And when you add to that the Christian faith and the fact that Peter and Paul ended up there and that that was clearly part of a providential design, because Christianity is truly a universal religion Not all religions are universal. Christianity was meant to reach out to all men at all times and all places, until the consummation of the world. But even in Christian revelation in the New Testament, you find even there that there's already this movement from Rome. If you take Luke, who was a great historian, great writer wrote beautiful Greek etc. But even in his gospel you see there's a movement from Galilee to Jerusalem and then, as soon as he gets into his sequel acts, it is very clear if you read attentively in numerous passages, all these things. It's a movement from Jerusalem to Rome, and even where our Lord stood by St Paul one night and said you have borne witness to me in Jerusalem, you must bear witness to me in Rome and you must, and it's the imperative. So God clearly wanted Paul there and he certainly wanted Peter there, because Peter went there, we believe, traditionally around the year 42. So it was part of the providential design.
Dr. O'Donnell:Rome has a special role in terms of history, culture, but now in terms of religion as well, and it's sort of interesting, I forget. I remember reading somewhere that, yeah, rome was founded on a wolf, you know, romulus, and Remus was founded on a shepherd, peter came, you know. And so in a certain sense, rome really became Christianized, deeply Christianized, and so I always look at Rome as sort of the center of the material universe. And whenever you go to St Peter's, you know, you just see people from all over the world and it's a beautiful thing to attend, like a papal mass in Latin, you know, and everyone's there. And then it's almost like it always gives me chills whenever we come to the Our Father everyone's starting to know , but again, it's like the miracle of Pentecost Everyone's praying to God in a common tongue and it's a beautiful thing and Rome is able to do that and the church does that, but it does it in a very special way in that city, marked by providence in terms of history and also by the establishment of the Catholic Church in that city as well.
Dr. O'Donnell:And so I know when I went there and studied there, it had my first visit, had a great impact on me when I studied and lived there. It had a profound impact on me and I saw the power of the, of a Catholic culture that you can find de-faith, of course, the Holy Father being there. And I said what a great way to crown off your studies and your liberal arts is to study at the heart of the church, and that's so important. And most of the Europeans got that sense too, because you had, at the end of your education, you had the Grand Tour. Well, any Grand Tour always absolutely had to include Rome as sort of a culmination, and a lot of times, even people who had an anti-Catholic bias were sort of zapped by the Baroque you know that they experienced there and the power.
Dr. O'Donnell:Now there's the cynical people who say, yeah, rome's seeing faith lost, but I don't think that's generally the case. People, when they normally go and experience that there is so much beauty to be found in Rome. Everywhere you go you go to some hill in Rome, you'll find a beautiful church and in that church will be beautiful art which breathes and speaks of the transcendent. And I think there's over 278 churches in the old city itself. So literally, just imagine the Blessed Sacrament. Everywhere you go and turning on a street corner, there'll be a Madonna. You know an image of the Madonna. So everywhere you go, you're reminded of what is really ultimately important for us, and that's our supernatural faith. And so if you're looking and you have eyes, you'll find it in Rome. All right, it doesn't have to be the sort of Agnostic thing. What was that guy wrote that book about? You know we saw Angel in the Architect. You remember there was that book about Rome, but it was the Da Vinci Code.
Dr. O'Donnell:Dan Brown yeah, so people go oh, let's do the Da Vinci Code. Well, that's ridiculous. Why do something that's sort of silly when you can actually go and discover the ultimate reality? That's part that helps you reach your final destination in life.
Joan:Yeah, there's so many converting powers in Rome. I mean, whether it's the beauty that's everywhere, whether it's the sanctity of the saints that are everywhere, whether it's the historicity and the universality, I feel like, if you go even on pilgrimage in doubt, right like you speak, like Rome has something to remind you that the church is bigger than you, older than you, more beautiful than you, you know, and that there's this like converting power there.
Dr. O'Donnell:I agree.
Dr. O'Donnell:Whatever you're chance, yeah, whenever someone takes up a pilgrimage, there's normally a great grace for that. So always ask people when they go to think what is it that you think God is going to be open to what God may be saying to you on this trip and you'll find somewhere there's going to be something very dramatic that's going to happen. You know, on that particular pilgrimage and I always love that movie Return to Me and there's a great line that said go to Rome, God, I'll hear you better in Rome. I know that's totally true, but it's true. I think it's because there are so many sacramentals all throughout the city and all knowledge comes through the senses, and so the beauty is really found there.
Dr. O'Donnell:But even in terms of the way the faith has affected culture, for example, where the church is considered an expert in humanity, the idea that you could be sitting in a piazza having a wonderful meal with a splashing fountain, you know, just surrounded by that type of beauty, and even the beauty of a culin, of culinary beauty and things like that, where there's a real passion for that, it all adds to the sense of the dignity of human life and that God ultimately does want us to be happy. You know, not in a fake sense, but in the sense that he desires our happiness and there are great goods along the way. I mean, you know, heaven is our ultimate home, but he's given us some beautiful hotels and hostels along the way, and Rome is one of those great, magnificent things where you can just be really struck by beauty and struck by the truth that is communicated, because ideally, the true, the good and the beautiful are always interlinked, and in Rome I think you find that in steroids.
Joan:Yes.
Dr. O'Donnell:Paris is good too, but I mean, there's nothing like Rome. Even the French had to have their church in Rome you know, that's right.
Joan:Which is a beautiful church.
Dr. O'Donnell:I said, gorgeous Beatiful art, very, very Roman.
Joan:Yeah, well, let's tap into the history, the history teacher and historian in you, and I want to ask do we have proof that Peter was in Rome? Because I think a lot of, maybe some of our Protestant brothers and sisters or skeptics might say oh, that's just a nice Catholic story and you had to pick Rome because the Holy Land was dangerous or something. Why you know? Do we have proof that Peter goes to Rome?
Dr. O'Donnell:Well, of course it is a nice Catholic story, but makes it really nice is the fact that it's true. There is so much evidence I mean not only in terms of scripture where Paul makes a reference like I don't want to build on another man's foundation, that's why he hasn't gone to Rome and he praises the Roman church in his letter to the Romans is it's famous spread all throughout the world. Well, what made Rome thrive If not the fact that the Prince of the apostles had actually gone there? And we know, at Pentecost we're told that there were visitors, even from Rome who were baptized by Peter. And of course, as a good shepherd, he's going to be following up on that.
Dr. O'Donnell:But there are numerous accounts of Peter's presence in Rome found in the writings of Eusebius Irenaeus, many of the early church fathers, even Ignatius of Antioch was martyred around the year 107. When he's writing his letter to the Romans he says I give no orders to you. I'm just a man enslaved, going off to be executed, but I don't give you orders, like Peter and Paul. So it was a word. Is that Peter and Paul were there and then a clear sense that in that first persecution the tradition always says that he was martyred under Nero. Eusebius mentions that and countless other testimonies from early fathers of the church, and the testimony is unanimous. It's really irrefutable. So as a historian you would look at them say this is overwhelming evidence of Peter's presence in Rome.
Dr. O'Donnell:Now, when he first went there, the exact date of his death was it intermittent, I mean he obviously went back to Jerusalem for some time. But the fact that he died there constitutes the historical fact that he laid the foundation of the church there and the successors to Peter are found in that city. And of course there is no other city anywhere that claimed to be successor of Peter except Rome. But we know even by the by the around 150, there was already a spot marking his grave and people were flocking there and there was a testimony that if you go out to Ostia or if you happen to be at the Vatican, you can see the tropeon, the trophies, the funeral monuments of those who founded this church, and that's Peter and Paul, and as a historian that's very, very early. So Peter, we understand now, would have been crucified upside down Tertullian tells us about that and was immediately thrown into an earthen grave just outside this, the ancient circus where now the Vatican would be in St Peter's would be, and there was a marking there and that was preserved down through the centuries.
Dr. O'Donnell:Then, eventually, when Constantine stopped the persecution, he wanted to do something to glorify the Christian God who had given him the great victory at Ponte Milvio, and so he decided to build a church and he picked a very difficult site. It was not an easy place. Over where the Vatican it was outside the city of Rome. There was a necropolis there, a city of the dead, where many of the wealthy Romans were still burying their dead, and, as Pontifix Maximus, only the emperor could suppress a functioning necropolis, but he filled it up with dirt and then he had to shave all and bring all this other dirt from the hill because there was a fixed spot right there that could not be moved. And what would make them do something that was so difficult and so challenging? It was the actual burial spot where Peter was. Now we can talk a lot about this, but over the years that spot had been venerated.
Dr. O'Donnell:But it appears that at the time of Constantine the grave was actually found, the grave where the, where the marking was. They dug up the bones and they hid them so they wouldn't be stolen, and probably also because it was a damp place that they wouldn't deteriorate further, and they sealed them in a wall right next to where the open grave was. And it was a Roman archaeologist, I think a name, maria Guarducci, who actually went and traced and found these bones in this receptacle and they did sort of an anthropological study of those bones found out that it was. It was of a man who was in his 60s or, you know, early 70s of robust constitution, and they still had the soil clinging to the soil that matched the soil right where Peter's grave. Peter's grave was found empty and it was also wrapped a sort of purple and gold thread, and you can read her book, maria Guarducci, and there's several other great books that have talked about the tomb of Peter, and then Paul the sixth.
Dr. O'Donnell:Finally I think it was in 1967 made the proclamation that we have found the bones, and so the building of the actual Basilica, the actual location of where the altar was, everything confirms that unanimous tradition Going all the way back to the first century, that this is the spot where the Prince of the Apostles was actually buried. So, yeah, we can have absolute faith that this is where Peter was actually buried, and so it's not just a pious myth, refabrication, it is a historical fact. So when you see that great dome of St Peter, the great dome of Michaelangelo, realize that the man who spoke directly with our Lord and was the first one to proclaim you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God, he was buried right there and he is the rock and he is the key bearer and he continues to draw people down through the centuries, that very sacred spot. It's a great moment in the life of any Catholic or any Christian to be able to go and be able to pray at the tomb of the Prince of the Apostles.
Joan:And I think one of the most moving things In Rome is that scavi tour which very few people get to do, but you actually go through these excavations. It's like the. It's like a great detective novel, where they're excavating under st Peter's Square like during World War two, keeping it secret from the Nazis, and they're excavating. Oh yeah and they come across this tomb and to to be in that small little room Under st Peter's and see the box that holds Peter's bones. There's nothing like it. Yes, it's a great experience.
Dr. O'Donnell:Yeah, I mean literally. Can you really walk back in time? Well, down there you can. You go back to a first century street and you see these pagan mausoleums and a couple of Christians. Then, finally, you come to the spot, you see the actual shrine that was there at Constantine time, which he saw and help them identify the grave and everything. And then you actually have of that, one little box I think the United States government donated the plastic boxes to preserve all of the pieces of that skeleton and you get to see that and, if you're really lucky, you can actually have mass down there, right at the actual right behind the tomb, which is a beautiful, beautiful thing to see, but it's important because it reminds us all, whether you're Catholic or not, that our Christian faith.
Dr. O'Donnell:Our Catholic faith is based on history. It is a historical faith real people, real events, things that actually took place. This is not some made-up myth like Zoroastrianism or something like that. You know I'm saying this is a religion that is grounded, just like Judaism, in history. God-specific revelation is intervention in time and in history and that's why it is a satisfying both faith and Reason and that's something that's so important, I think, why it's great to be able to go and study there or a go on pilgrimage there definitely.
Joan:Yeah, I had a friend that one time gave a tour to a non-Catholic. He was a Protestant filmmaker and and my friend was really excited to take him to these places and to show that, show him these tombs of the saints, the tombs of Peter and Paul, philip and James and Bartholomew, yeah, and and he was just kind of like, oh well, they're dead bodies. Like why am I going to these, these tombs of these dead bodies, when I can live, you know, the church here on earth with my saints and you know, and I think it kind of it's kind of a downer when you're Catholic and you're excited to show somebody the tombs of the Apostles. But I think there's a Catholic response like what would you say to that? Like why do we make pilgrimages to quote dead saints bodies?
Dr. O'Donnell:Yeah, yeah, well, I'm happy he's praying to the saints and invoking them even back at home. That's a good, that's a great thing too, but no, but it's an act of devotion. You know, pilgrimages are not really. You know, vacations, you know, and so, like I always, I'll always share, you know, the difference between a pilgrimage and going on vacation, and on a pilgrimage, you're not allowed to complain Because it's meant to be difficult.
Dr. O'Donnell:But the idea of going and being reminded, I think having the relics First of all, it is a reminder of the concrete reality again, of the. These are real people and a lot of times You say oh The saints are up in heaven, but when you see the severed arm of st Jude, for example, you realize, oh my gosh, that arm baptized people. You see the arm if you go to the J Zoo and you see Francis Xavier's arm and they used to have a plaque up there. They taken it down. I wish they put it back up.
Dr. O'Donnell:The arm that baptized millions. It reminds you of the saint, the concrete reality of who they are. Plus the cult of relics is something that goes back to Biblical times. You know, they used to say that saint Paul would heal, peter's shadow would heal Just touching the hem of our Lord's garment was all that we needed for the woman to be healed of the flow of blood. And then you also had they said, because, st Paul's holiness, even Hankerchiefs that touch Paul, they would take and lay them on the sick and they would be healed.
Dr. O'Donnell:So I mean, if we approach them, with faith in the sense that the saints now are at one with our Lord in heaven. And so through our active devotion, piety, where we stop, recall the st Pray and invoke the aid, the fact that you've given something, you've sacrificed to come, and you're expressing your faith, making an act of faith most pleasing to our Lord but also pleasing to his friend, whether it's Matthew or Bartholomew or whoever it might be. It's all part of the communion of saints. But you also get a sense that we're not. You know death doesn't separate us. You know, like we say, that every funeral for your faithful one's life has changed, not ended. And so we realize that the church triumphant is Not something sort of pie, the sky fantasy, it's real.
Dr. O'Donnell:And so we're living our life right now and every one of us are called to be a saints, and so going on a pilgrimage is a way, deepening your faith deepen your holiness, with the hope that one day you will enter, become part of the church, not just the church suffering or the church militant, but you'll be part of that glorious, triumphant church, just like whatever saint you happen to be venerating. And the fact that they're also saints. It's a great thing to realize that sanctity is possible, grace where all of us every day are swimming in a sea of grace. If we would only tune our receiver to the right frequency, you would see that we are constantly receiving graces from our Lord. And I think a pilgrimage can be a heightened time where we're more sensitive, more looking, more open to that kind of grace. And I think there are great graces that are received when we open ourselves, particularly on a pilgrimage, and especially with saints. They did it with the grace of God and if we cooperate with that grace, we can be part of that as well.
Joan:Yeah, I think that's why I encourage people. People oftentimes ask me should I go to the Holy Land or Rome? And I say, yes, I think you should go to both, like how do you choose? But I think in some ways Rome is more approachable for me because I'm a sinner and I can think of walking in the footsteps of those other sinners, whether it's. Peter and Paul or Francis of Assisi or Catherine of Sienna right? Like, whereas the Holy Land I love the Holy Land, but I can't.
Joan:It's harder for me to walk in the footsteps of Christ right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah you know what would you say to somebody who says like, oh well, by going to Rome instead of the Holy Land, you're saying Peter and the Pope are more important than Jesus. Like we should just go to the Holy Land and forget Rome.
Dr. O'Donnell:Well, that's not true, because Jesus is in Rome, jesus everywhere, and of course there is the Covatus tradition also about our Lord appearing to Peter in Rome, and of course our Lord is present in the Blessed sacrament. Of course you could say that why go anywhere? Just stay in your parish church and by all means go to the Holy Land, because again, that also helps to see concretely that the historicity of the incarnation You're like Dr Koeh used to say truth exists. The incarnation happened.
Dr. O'Donnell:But of course the beauty is that in a lot of ways Rome is in a certain sense the new Jerusalem, because the church did move from Jerusalem and of course Jerusalem remains sort of the mother church because that's where Christ established the church initially, but Jerusalem, in a certain sense Rome, has become the center of pilgrim because Christ built his church there, placed the center of the church there, and that's why everyone knew, even when the Popes left for Avignon and as great as the French wine was and being on the Rhône River and French cuisine and all that, everyone knew that he had to go back to Rome, because that was not an accident, that was part of God's providence.
Dr. O'Donnell:Plus, also, you do have the church in Santa Croce in Jerusalem, where the whole sanctuary is packed with soil from Jerusalem. You have the holy stairs that were taken from what they believe was Pilate's Praetorium, where a Lord tradition says walk up, you can see. There's a lot of Jerusalem stuff that you can do, and it's just because Rome is really sort of the head and the mother, you know, capul de Mater, as they say at the latter in Basilica, and so you can see so many of those things that would be part of a pilgrimage to the holy land as well.
Joan:Yeah, it's interesting, people weren't making pilgrimages to Avignon even when the Pope was there. So I think, remembering that we don't go on vacation to see the Pope, we go on pilgrimage to the tombs of the apostles.
Dr. O'Donnell:Sure.
Joan:And I think sometimes we get that skewed nowadays with the Pope kind of being the celebrity.
Dr. O'Donnell:Yeah.
Joan:But the importance of Rome doesn't even rest in the Pope being there, as much as this history in Peter.
Dr. O'Donnell:Yeah, peter. Well, even when the bishops go to him, even when the bishops go to visit the Pope, it's called an adlimina visit, and adlimin means to the threshold. It's to the threshold of the tombs of Peter and Paul. That's what they're going to, and then they see the Pope, but it's always focused on Peter and Paul. That's what you're going for.
Joan:When did Christians start making pilgrimages? What is the history of Christian pilgrimage to Rome? Did they start Pretty much immediately?
Dr. O'Donnell:Oh, I would think so. Even if you go back to St Paul, he says I must see Rome and of course he goes there and he goes to the pilgrimage. He wants to impart something, but he also wants to receive something and share what he calls our common faith. But then, even very early on, when there we know of people traveling to Rome when there were disputes about Easter and things like that, they would travel to Rome as pilgrims to consult with the Pope, like Pope Anesthesi, to talk about the date of Easter and what would be the proper day, because the West had a different practice from what was in the East, and things like that.
Dr. O'Donnell:But even someone like Irenaeus, who came out of the Eastern Church, came to Rome and lived in Rome and dwelt in Rome for a long time, jerome ends up in Rome. So I think pilgrimage to Rome is as old as St Peter and St Paul gets as old as Christianity being there. Same thing with Jerusalem. I mean, in a certain sense it was Jerusalem, rome and of course Santiago also became a huge center of pilgrimage as well. But I think you could say second century on, rome is a site of pilgrimage. Who wouldn't want to go to the tomb of Peter and Paul yeah.
Joan:And I guess we even see that with the trophy, like the building of the to mark the grave. And then we know people went, they want to be buried next to him. We know they went and lowered their.
Dr. O'Donnell:Many of the early popes in the first and second century decided to be buried right next to St Peter. We've lost a lot of their graves. Then eventually a lot of them were put outside in the Catacomba St Calyxdis, you know, when you get into the second century. But yeah, everyone desired to be there and people would flock to that and that's just a natural instinct. Of course, peter has the keys to the kingdom of heaven. So if you want to get into heaven, go talk to the key bearer, talk to the vicar, you know, talk to the vicar, you know Christ vicar. And so, yeah, that was a big part of that. Also, belief in the resurrection, the dignity of the human body, that imagine if you were to pop up and Peter's right next to you. That would be a good move.
Joan:Well, you have lived in Rome, you have led pilgrimages to Rome, you visited Rome countless times. What's one thing you always try to do or place you always try to go to, even if you only have a few days.
Dr. O'Donnell:Oh well, that's easy. We've been talking about it St Peter's. I will never go to Rome and not go to St Peter's Basilica and have a chance to actually pray at the tomb. I just love St Peter's and that's always the focus of any trip to Rome, but I also like getting outside the city. So if I can ever work in a catacomb, I've always found my life, spiritual life, really enriched by once again going into visiting a catacomb. I mean that, and basically not everyone's there.
Dr. O'Donnell:A lot of martyrs are out there, but not everyone buried in a catacomb is a martyr.
Dr. O'Donnell:But the fact that everyone who was buried during those first three centuries was doing at a time where the precedent had been sent in Roman law that if you were a Christian at any time you could be killed, if a local governor wanted to start a persecution, it could be.
Dr. O'Donnell:So everyone who died during that time would have been a Christian when it could have meant death. And so I think I draw great inspiration from that. Looking of all those who went before us, you know, marked, as they say, marked with the sign of faith, who are now sleeping and reflecting upon that is is a big thing, and if I get out to the old Appian Way. I love it because you're sort of outside the city, but it hasn't changed that much, even from ancient times. I mean, those stones are still there on the Appian Way. Those are the stones that Peter and Paul would have walked upon when they came to the city. So, having that kind of contact with like I call living history, and then, plus, after a great spiritual pilgrimage out there, there's about three or four really awesome restaurants out there too, where you can then sit down and do your pastapane, a little vino bianco, you know, and just have a great time and celebrate the beauty of God's creation.
Joan:I love the perspective that the catacombs that the Via Appia, that Rome gives us, that you know, so often we become, become so consumed with our own problems, the church's problems, 2024, and just the perspective of we've been here before, here again, the Lord's here, the Lord's seen it, the church has seen a lot and it just gives you such a perspective of I'm not the center of the universe and my problems aren't the center of the universe and the church's problems aren't the center of the universe.
Dr. O'Donnell:Absolutely. I mean, look, we've had we've had antipopes. We've had a time where there were three guys claiming to be pope and even the saints were divided on that. So it you know, not not to minimize some of the challenges and difficulties, but I mean, obviously our Lord has been with this church through all of these difficulties and so we have to realize that fundamentally, he's going to be with this church and there's going to be difficulties, there's going to be challenges, but you stay with the church and if you stay with the church and stay and maintain your Catholic faith, you're going to work through all of these things and it does just really give you a bigger perspective.
Dr. O'Donnell:I mean, we have challenges here in the United States living our Catholic faith and there is there's persecution on pro-life and on issues and things like that, but right now nobody's killing us. You know, we're not in danger of being shot like they were recently, I think. Where is it? I guess there was a group of women in what used to be well, it was the in Asia where they broke and 15 women were just shot at Sunday Mass.
Dr. O'Donnell:You look at what's going on Nigeria literally hundreds of people being killed in Nigeria, and hopefully they'll recognize that there is a threat to religious liberty in that country. They'll declare it that way. But we there's plenty of modern-day martyrs, where people are being killed all the time for their faith, and so, drawing inspiration from that and then recognizing that, yeah, there's plenty of martyrs today, we need to pray for people who are being persecuted and invoke those people that have died for their faith, even though they might be officially canonized by the church. But a lot of these people have been killed odium fida, out of hatred for the faith, just because they're Catholic, and so we should really ask their prayers as well.
Joan:As we close and wrap up, do you have any recommended resources to learn more? Maybe somebody wants to know about the Catholic history of Rome, or the the first days of the church in Rome, or pilgrimage. Do you have any recommended resources?
Dr. O'Donnell:Well, okay, sure, one book that I absolutely love and I think there was just an updated version there was a Georgina Massone who wrote a book just called Rome, and she is very open and sensitive to the Christian message, but she has a love of art and a love of beauty and she has a great way of making Rome come alive. Georgina Massone, her book, rome. Fulton Sheen did a book called this is Rome, and that's that is a great one too, because obviously Fulton Sheen has a gift of eloquence and he has a great way of communicating that. Also a great preparation. George Weigel wrote a great book, along with Liz Lev, called Roman Pilgrimage, where he uncovers the stational churches, and when I was a student there, those are the every day in lent, there's a special church you can go to, but one of the best. I did that a couple times when I was a student in Rome and that completely unlocked so much of early Christian history that just was very, very moving. That would be a great book to take a look at, especially if you're there in Lent, but it doesn't have to be just in Lent, but those are all really great.
Dr. O'Donnell:There was also an older little book by Moses Hades. It was just called the History of Rome and she gives you sort of like a narrative but gives quotes from Roman historians and it's not necessarily Christian, but she goes into Constantine and things like that, but it talks about the Roman Republic, about Cicero, and they would give you a real sense of like if you're going through the Roman form of classical antiquity. It was it's a great little book to take with you there, but those are just some and there's some very. There's some other really good Pilgrimage books. There's one I think called the Churches of Rome, by a Jesuit I think Tyndale, I can't remember the name, but that's a very good book. And there's other ones that anything that says like a Christian guide to Rome generally, you're going to be in good shape if you get something like that, but those are just some off the top of my head. And if you want Peter's tomb, there was a book by Maria Gorducci, I think it's still available, and there've been several other books that have based their research on Maria Gorducci's work on the tomb of Peter and those would all be great reads for you too. And of course there's there's, you know, fictional called Quovadas is a great book to read. I've got the Pulitzer Prize. Sheikvitz great book Quovadas would be a wonderful thing to read.
Dr. O'Donnell:Irving Stones, the Agony and the Ecstasy about Michelangelo those things are all great in terms of really giving you guys love of the Renaissance. Michelangelo was a man of deep faith. So was Bernini. So sometimes getting a Catholic perspective on some of these great artists who were deeply inspired by their Catholic faith? Bernini, did you know? 30-day Ignatian retreat loved the Jesuits back then when they were doing that sort of thing. I'll just be excited but okay, but no, but those are things that you could take, it could really take advantage of and I think would really be beneficial.
Dr. O'Donnell:But then, one of the big things is go and experience it. Don't go around just taking pictures all the time. Drink it in. I mean, when you first get there, allow the beauty, the architecture, to take it in. If any church you're going to go in, you're also going to come out of. So maybe go and experience and do it prayerfully. Then, when you come out, take your time taking pictures, but let the spirit move. You enjoy the true, the good, the beautiful and take that all in like when you first walk in St Peter's. Don't start taking all sorts of pictures. Go in and just walk and let Bernini's colony we're supposed to be the arms of Christ let that embrace you and pull you into the mystery of holy mother church. And it's a great way to go.
Joan:Absolutely well, thank you, dr Donald, thanks for your time, and I have to thank you for the Rome program with Christendom College, because that's when I first got to live in Rome and it was life-changing. There is nothing like being able to spend an extended amount of time. It was also the semester that John Paul II died, so talk about like history and just thank you for giving so many college students that experience. It really is life-changing was my joy.
Dr. O'Donnell:I'm so glad you were able to do that. Hope many may hope there'll be many more years of that happening as well.
Joan:I hope so. So well, god bless. Thank you listeners. Thanks for tuning in and join us as we continue to walk through this idea of the history of pilgrimage, the importance of pilgrimage and really the beauty of the Christian life through pilgrimage. God bless.
